This interview was conducted by Katharine Blair on the 24th of November, 2022 via email.
The questions and answers appear here in their unedited form.

’TWO OUT OF THREE FALLS’ (Bullshit Lit, 2022) tells the story of a girl finding her way to feminity and acceptance (self and external) through a love of pro wrestling. This is a story so culturally backward as to have me intrigued. Late eighties wrestling was my boy space. Shirtless and sexless, a boy among cousins, we built ramps out of offcuts and roped trees off into corners. The women of wrestling were aggressively women. They still chafe uneasy. Walk me back through that, what did you see when you looked in that ring?

First off, since we’re talking about “TWO OUT OF THREE FALLS” can I, like, do entrance music?
Can you do that for a written interview?
I’m doing it. :D

J Dilla - Lightworks

Anyway!
Back to the question -

I totally understand the intrigue there. :)
I grew up in the deep south and - at least, in my neck of the woods- it was culturally acceptable to be really into one of three things: football, hunting, and pro wrestling. And as a kid who knew they were different from the jump, trying to fit in was of the utmost importance.

Looking at the list… first two were a hard pass for me, so wrestling it was! Plus, some cousins had some pillow plush versions of “Macho Man” Randy Savage & Jake ”The Snake” Roberts, so the colorful characters were way more intriguing than bloodshed or just aggro masculine bullshit & then, to have these paragons of masculine virtue with long hair, in neon colors, with all these fireworks & light shows going off around them - cliché it may be, but the whole thing was a real life comic book or video game.

You add to that the women who had growling, rough voices, towering personalities, and these wild face paint designs on ( Love ya, Bull Nakano & R.I.P. “Sensational” Sherri & Luna Vachon,) and I was hooked.

There was no worry of mockery or ridicule for the characters, no one would holler about them being “a queer,” no thought of how to act like a man/ woman.

It was just good vs. evil - and when you live your life getting bullied or mocked almost everyday… to see the Good best the Evil.

It meant a lot.

William Regal's Greatest Promo

There’s a big shift in form between these two books. ‘TWO OUT OF THREE’ is wordy while ‘Snakeskin’ makes use of visual imagery and an open black page. Were they written in succession or by theme split? What was your thinking as you went into each?

They were actually written by theme - with “Snakeskin,” it was as an ad-hoc journal of my realization that I was non-binary & the process of understanding so much of my early life & how raw & new my life would be now that I could live this truth to the fullest. I was also taking in a lot of surrealistic media - Eraserhead, Possibly in Michigan, Julee Cruise (R.I.P.) Illuminations - as well as falling down a YouTube rabbit hole of chill documentaries about snakes. So, all that just kinda coalesced in my head in the middle of a summer in the desert, and Snakeskin was here. :)

Julee Cruise - Falling (Twin Peaks Soundtrack)

As mentioned previously, “TWO OUT OF THREE” is rooted in a childhood in the deep south - by and large, southerners tend to be a bit partial to waxing poetic on whatever the topic of discussion might be, so I would attribute that to the wording of the chap. Also, while pro wrestling is in of itself a visual medium, I do think the written or spoken word on it can be just as powerful, if done with care - some of my favorite moments with wrestling involve the commentary from the TV announcers & the interviews/promos from the wrestlers themselves, so that all lended itself thematically to “TWO OUT OF THREE.”

Jim Ross Calling Triple H a “son of a b*tch” Compilation

When we talk about transition, specifically social transition, I always wish we had more than one word. “TWO OUT OF THREE” is devoted to friendship, to finding your people and gaining a foothold in an uncertain world. “Snakeskin,” by contrast, takes us into your families. The one you must leave to build the other a home. Layer in school, work, and strangers and that Social suddenly grows the size of the world. We’re kith for a reason. How has poetry and writing helped you work through your understanding of kin?

Wow, that’s… that’s a big one.

I think the way I can best describe it is: I now know, honest & true, what it means to pick your kin & how that really is entirely valid & beautiful.

On the surface, writing & poetry & the community online around both has led to amazing ideas, people, and wonder plopping into my life.

But beyond that, the working out/unpacking trauma & life experiences onto pages/screens has led to a recurring theme I was never really aware of until I went back & looked through my notebooks & rough drafts: shoveling through mountains of pain & venom & fuckery thrown at me by my supposed kin who I only after hitting breaking points realized that I had just latched onto relationships with them due to a combination of shared interests & proximity.

I think it’s telling of life & the thought of kin that some of the truest friends & the love of my life (Hi Ash 😄💗🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️) I met all online, hundreds of thousands of miles away from me.

Kin is not just those that are near who like indie rock & strange comedies from the early 90’s - they’re the people who you genuinely, truly care about & want to help & reach out to in their times of need, knowing that they’d do the same for you.

That shared heartbeat between separate souls.

That’s kin.

Modest Mouse - Ocean Breathes Salty

I’m so averse to optimism and positivity culture that I’m honestly angry about how much I love this line. For you. For my better half. (Nice try, but I’m still refusing to claim it for me). I think that self-built is the nexus of so many sick/trans/mad/trauma kid awakenings. That double edged knife that leaves us angered and proud. I built this. I picked up the pieces they scattered and built me anew. This skill that should never be needed, that delays our whole everything and never is never recouped. And yet, we have it and should be proud that we do. What’s your triumph in rebuilding. If you say your wife, I’ll say, deservedly. But, take a second, what’s the best thing you took pains to include in this newly built you?

Well, I mean… my wife (Hi again, Ash 😄💖🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️)

Couldn’t resist :)

But seriously, the part of the new me that was incredibly difficult to include, but so happy I did, was: loving myself.

I had spent a life being self-deprecating, which I know is part in parcel of using humor as a defense mechanism. And yet, after a lot of self-reflection & working with my therapist, I realized it was a crackling paint job over the reality of the whole thing: severe self-loathing.

It was just… I had spent a lifetime being told the way my brain, my heart, my everything wanted to live was wrong wrong wrong.

I felt my whole life like it was that game Don’t Wake Daddy, except “Daddy” is “Societal Norms.”

https://youtu.be/Ar27fGO7sDU

& (cw warning: self harm, mental health struggles) I had a fucking nervous breakdown at work, my wife had to stay on the phone with me while I drove myself home because I openly admitted that I wanted to die & she was talking me down to not driving into traffic like I said I planned to do.

Sitting in the fetal position with just a hospital gown on while a very kind doctor asks you if you want to die, disappear, or just stop existing really puts things into perspective.

I quit that job.

I stayed home for a month or two, working at DoorDash to help with bills while I wrote and, to paraphrase Bob’s Burgers, processed up a storm.

And I took stock of the situation - again, with the help of my therapist - as to the root causes of all this agony I had been putting myself through.

And that’s when it hit that I didn’t love myself.

I was sad & ashamed & afraid & worried because I was queer & there was this other feeling of myself that I knew was there but couldn’t quite put a name to at the time (hello non-binary!)

And ever since that time, I’ve done all I can to undo a life of living in self-built poison & love myself.

Two quotes I love about this - one from Buddha:

“You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection.”

(Sidebar- I’m Buddhist)

& one from Kendrick Lamar, from his song “i”:

I duck these cold faces, post up fi-fie-fo-fum basis
Dreams of reality’s peace (Oh, yeah)
Blow steam in the face of the beast
Sky could fall down, wind could cry now
Look at me motherfucker I smile-

And (I love myself)

Kendrik Lamar - I

It has been absolutely a hellscape to do it, but so happy I’m finally on the road to loving myself.

Well done. Now to the easy.

Two presses, two chapbooks, two editors and approaches to negotiate at the same time. I only have one lens on that experience. What did it look like for you from the inside?

Honestly?

I think maybe it was just the dice fell in my favor, or maybe similar people wanting to work together, but it was just so…chill, for lack of a more elegant term.

Both Bullshit & kith are about the artist/ author/poet first & foremost, both go out their way to promote the work they’re putting out in the world, and there’s this simultaneous lack of pretensions while also being aware of the discerning tastes of the editors of Bullshit & kith.

It was wild to experience, but working with such great people at both presses, it made it feel like such a pleasure. I genuinely felt like both places understood myself & my work & as a result, both my work & I were in safe hands.

Suzanne Vega - Tom’s Diner

What are you excited about? What comes next?

I have a full length that I'm shopping around right now - BACKMASKED PRAYERS- that I think is soon to find a lovely home 😄

And outside of that, just gonna keep snuggling with my wife & our kitty, Luna, keep writing, keep putting more of my stuff & myself out in the world, and try to do all I can to put happiness & positivity out in the world. The world is shit, but we can do our part to try & make one another's days a little better & brighter. :)

Ezra Furman performs “Suck The Blood From My Wound”